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Page 56 [1] A: I would think I would. [2] Q: I'd like to turn now to the autopsy of [3] President Kennedy and ask some questions about [4] that. As you're sitting here today, do you recall [5] whether you took any black and white photographs at [6] the autopsy? [7] A: To tell you the truth, I don't remember. [8] But we should have, if we didn't. I think we saw [9] some negatives when we went in `66 - some black [10] and white negatives. But, generally, the flim [11] holders have on it whether they're color or black [12] and white. [13] Q: In the autopsy of President Kennedy, was [14] there anyone else present taking photographs in [15] addition to yourself? [16] A: No. [17] Q: You have previously mentioned the name of [18] Mr. Riebe. [19] A: Correct. [20] Q: Do you recall that? [21] A: Yes. [22] Q: Do you have any recollection as to whether Page 57 [1] Mr. Riebe took any photographs during the autopsy. [2] A: Mr. Riebe had a camera. We thought it was [3] an occasion, and that we might take some pictures [4] of some of the people in the room. And one of the [5] FBI agents - or CIA, whoever it was - saw the [6] camera, and he took the film out of the camera [7] before there was any exposures made. [8] Q: When he took the film out of the camera, [9] did you see him take the film out of the camera, or [10] did you hear about that? [11] A: I heard about it from Riebe. [12] Q: Okay. Was it your understanding that the [13] film had been exposed to light? [14] A: Correct. [15] Q: Now, if a film is exposed to light would [16] it be something like translucent or transparent, or [17] would it be black, if it were subsequently [18] developed? [19] A: It would - I mean, if it were developed, [20] it wouldn't show anything. [21] Q: It wouldn't show anything. But would the [22] film be dark, or would it be clear? Page 58 [1] A: It should be clear. There's no exposure. [2] Q: Do you know what kind of camera Mr. Riebe [3] had at the autopsy? [4] A: It was a 120. I don't know what - I [5] don't remember the name of it. [6] Q: Are you familiar with the name of Mr. [7] Robert Knudsen? [8] A: Knudsen. A doctor? [9] Q: White House photographer. [10] A: Not that I can recall, no. [11] Q: Do you ever recall meeting with anyone who [12] was a White House photographer anytime during the [13] Kennedy orJohnson administrations? [14] A: Meeting? Not that I - [15] Q: Meeting, or knowing, or conversing with [16] any White House photographers. [17] A: I know they had a photographer at the [18] White House. But I don't remember that, no. [19] Q: Is the name Knudsen familiar to you at [20] all? [21] A: I knew a Dr. Knudsen. But if I ever met [22] him, I don't remember. Page 59 [1] Q: Okay. In addition to Mr. Riebe, was there [2] anyone else at the autopsy who had a camera that [3] you recall? [4] A: None at all. [5] Q: If there had been someone else at the [6] autopsy with a camera, do you believe, as you're [7] sitting here today, that you would recall that? [8] A: Yes. If he had a camera, he couldn't have [9] taken a picture there anyway. [10] Q: Other than Mr. Riebe, was there anyone [11] else at the autopsy who was assisting you in taking [12] photographs? [13] A: No. [14] Q: What kind of lighting did the morgue at [15] Bethesda have, other than any artificial lighting [16] that you would have brought in? [17] A: It had florescents, I believe, in the [18] overhead. And then it had a light over the table. [19] Q: Was the lighting that was normally in the [20] morgue at Bethesda sufficient for taking autopsy. [21] photographs? [22] A: No. Page 60 [1] Q: What did you take with you to the autopsy? [2] A: We had speed lights. [3] Q: Can you explain, briefly, what a speed [4] light is? [5] A: Well, it's like a flash. And you press it [6] along with the camera. It's synchronized, and [7] exposes it. [8] Q: Okay. Did you take any other kind of [9] lighting with you, in addition to the speed lights? [10] A: No. Now, these were mounted on a stand, [11] and they had rollers on them. [12] Q: Approximately, how many speed lights did [13] you take with you? [14] A: Two. [15] Q: Was that standard procedure, to have two [16] speed lights? [17] A: Yes. [18] Q: Were the lights always behind you when you [19] were taking photographs? [20] A: On the side of the camera. [21] Q: On the side. Were speed lights ever [22] called floodlights? Page 61 [1] A: No. A floodlight would be an incandescent [2] lamp. That would be hot. Now, that's what we just [3] used to use before the speed lights came into [4] effect. [5] Q: The speed lights were in existence in [6] 1963? [7] A: That's correct. [8] Q: Could you look at the top of page 10 of [9] the document marked No. 19, please? [10] Will you look on the top paragraph of the [11] last sentence, which reads, "He said there were [12] probably floodlights used." [13] Do you see that at the top of the page? [14] A: Yes. [15] Q: Would it be your understanding that that [16] statement is inaccurate? [17] A: Yes. [18] Q: By the way, with respect to Exhibit No. [19] 19, do you have any understanding or idea of how [20] that document might have come into existence, or [21] why there would be references to a Mr. Stringer? [22] A: No. Page 62 [1] Q: Does it surprise you to see Exhibit 19? [2] A: Yes, it does. Although, there are things [3] in there that are true. [4] Q: Without your answer to this being [5] necessarily exhaustive, are there other things that [6] stood out in Exhibit No.19 as being incorrect? Is [7] there anything that you now recall that seem to be [8] incorrect? [9] A: I don't know. [10] Q: I'd like to show you a document that has [11] been marked as Exhibit MD 80. Could you take a [12] look at that document and tell me whether you've [13] ever seen that previously? [14] A: Yes. I, evidently, wrote that; yes. [15] MR. GUNN: I'll state for the record that [16] on its face Exhibit MD 80 appears to be a letter, [17] dated September 11th, 1977, from Mr. John T. [18] Stringer, Jr. to Mr. Donald A. Purdy, Jr. [19] BY MR. GUNN: [20] Q: Mr. Stringer, do you have any recollection [21] of having written the letter? [22] A: I guess, I must have. But that was in Page 63 [1] 1977. I don't have a copy of it. [2] Q: As best you can tell, is that your [3] signature - [4] A: Yes. [5] Q: - at the bottom of the page? [6] A: Yes, I would say it is. Yes. [7] Q: Does the letter help refresh your [8] recollection about any contacts, even through [9] writing, that you may have had with the House [10] Select Committee on Assassinations? [11] A: Well, evidently, this was from them, [12] but - But I don't even - I mean, this is [13] bringing back memories, but I don't remember - [14] Q: Does Exhibit No. 80 refresh your [15] recollection as to whether you may have met with [16] anyone on the House Select Committee staff? [17] A: I don't remember meeting with anyone on [18] the House Committee staff, no. [19] You mean physically, face to face? [20] Q: Yes. [21] A: No. [22] Q: Do you recall going to Washington at any Page 64 [1] time during 1977? [2] A: I generally went up to see my kids, yes. [3] But I don't remember going down with anybody to see [4] the pictures. [5] Q: In Exhibit 19, there are a couple of [6] references, which I have recorded as being on pages [7] 11 to 12 and 16, that state that you did not take [8] color photographs - excuse me - you did not take [9] black and white photographs at the autopsy. Are [10] those statements correct or incorrect? [11] Although, on pages 11 to 12, it's right at [12] the end of the page. [13] A: Well, I don't know whether I did or not, [14] but I think I did when I see all this. [15] Q:You think that you did - [16] A: Took some black and white. [17] Q: When you say "see all of this", what are [18] you referring to? [19] A: Well, seeing what was said back in those [20] days. [21] Q: You're referring to Exhibit 19? [22] A: Well, I am referring to some of the other Page 65 [1] things that were said that there were black and [2] whites taken. [3] Q: Okay. [4] A: If we had the chit from the thing, it [5] would say how many films were taken. [6] Q: Do you recall having filled out the chit [7] with respect to the autopsy of President Kennedy? [8] A: I think so, yes. [9] Q: Could you look at the top of page 16? [10] A: Yes. [11] Q: The first full sentence, which I'll read [12] for the record. "He said in the general autopsy he [13] took only color photo -" Excuse - Let me try [14] that again. [15] "He said in the general autopsy he only [16] took color photographs." Do you see that at the [17] top of the page? [18] A: Yes. [19] Q: Is that a correct statement as to what you [20] did during the autopsy? [21] A: I actually don't remember, but we [22] generally took black and white and color at the Page 66 [1] same time. Now, if we have black and white [2] negatives, then, we probably took it. But, then, [3] you can also take black and white negatives from a [4] color print. [5] Q: When you say took them, who do you [6] mean by "we"? [7] A: I. Excuse me. [8] Q: Could you describe for me how the [9] photography took place at the autopsy of President [10] Kennedy? And maybe if we can just start out by, [11] were you present in the morgue when the body [12] arrived? [13] A: Yes, I was in the morgue when the body [14] arrived. [15] Q: Prior to the time the body arrived, had [16] you taken any photographs? [17] A: No. [18] Q: When did yQu first start taking [19] photographs? [20] A: After they had finished the X-rays, and [21] put the X-rays on the view box, and interpreted [22] them. Page 67 [1] Q: Do you remember approximately how much [2] time there was between the time that the body was [3] taken out of the casket and you began to take [4] photographs? [5] A: Oh, it must have been more than an hour by [6] the time they took the X-rays. And they had to [7] develop them, and bring them back down. [8] Q: Do you recall what kind of casket the body [9] arrived in? [10] A: It was a metal casket. [11] Q: What color was it? [12] A: I think it was sort of a brownish. [13] Q: Do you remember what kind of lid it had? [14] A: One that opens. [15] Q: On hinges? [16] A: Yes. [17] Q: What was President Kennedy's body wrapped [18] in, if anything, when it arrived? [19] A: It was wrapped in two sheets; one around [20] the head, and one around the body. [21] Q: These were cloth sheets? Plastic sheets? [22] A: They were just like off of the bed. Page 68 [1] hospital sheets. [2] Q: Okay. Once you started taking [3] photographs, did you take all of the photographs [4] all at approximately the same time, or did you take [5] photographs throughout the autopsy? [6] A: It was throughout the autopsy. [7] Q: You mentioned previously the photographs [8] were in two to a pack; is that right? [9] A: Yes. [10] Q: When you - [11] A: To a film holder. [12] Q: To a film holder. When you pulled out the [13] film holder from the camera, what did you do with [14] it? [15] A: Held it in my hand, because It's [16] silver when it's not exposed. And then when you [17] expose it, then you put the black side in. Then [18] you take it out, turn it over, and put the other [19] side in. [20] Q: Okay. And when you had the film holder in [21] your hand with exposed film, what did you then do [22] with the film holder? Page 69 [1] A: I gave it to the agent or to Riebe - to [2] someone, and they took it. And they put them in a [3] box, because they did not want anybody else to have [4] them. [5] Q: When you say "they", you're referring [6] to - [7] A: Either Secret Service or CIA, whoever it [8] was. They said that's what we were to do. [9] Q: Okay. Did anyone show you any [10] identification, so you would have known whether it [11] was Secret Service or any other agency? [12] A: No. [13] Q: They were wearing civilian clothes? [14] A: Wearing civilian clothes. And I believe [15] Dr. Humes and Dr. Stover said to do what they [16] wanted. [17] Q: Do you recall at any point taking just one [18] of the sheets - or exposing one of the sheets in a [19] holder, and not exposing the other sheet? [20] A: Never. [21] Q: That wouldn't have been your practice? [22] Just to do one side - Page 70 [1] A: No. [2] Q: - and then hand it to them. And so, [3] roughly, you would estimate that there would be two [4] sheets that had been exposed for each holder; is [5] that right? [6] A: For each holder. [7] Q: Did you alternate between black and white [8] sheets, or did you take all color and then black [9] and white? Do you have any recollection? [10] A: No, you'd have to alternate. [11] Q: Did you take any exposures that would show [12] the full length of the body of President Kennedy? [13] A: Yes. [14] Q: So, it would be from head to toe? [15] A: Yes. [16] Q: From the side? [17] A: From above. [18] Q: From above? [19] A: Shooting down. [20] Q: Okay. Did you take any that would take [21] the full length of the body from the left side or [22] the right side? Page 71 [1] A: I don't remember. [2] Q: Is it difficult, with the size lens that [3] you have, to take a photograph of the entire length [4] of the body in the room - in the morgue? [5] A: Well, you get back far enough, you could [6] do it. Yes. [7] Q: So, that didn't present any particular [8] difficulties? [9] A: No. [10] Q: Did you take any photographs of the head [11] before the scalp was pulled down? [12] A: Yes. [13] Q: Did you take any photographs of the head [14] after scalp had been pulled down or reflected? [15] A: Yes. [16] Q: Did you take any photographs of the body [17] before Y incision? [18] A: Yes. [19] Q: Did you take any photographs after there [20] had been a Y incision? [21] A: We took pictures of the insides, yes. [22] What kinds of pictures did you take of the Page 72 [1] insides? [2] A: What they told us to take. [3] Q: Do you have any recollection now as to [4] what those shots would have been? [5] A: Well, there was some in - an anterior [6] shot up around the neck, and down around the [7] adrenals. [8] Q: Did you take any photographs of organs [9] after they had been removed from the body? [10] A: Not that I can recall, no. [11] Q: Did you take any photographs showing the [12] inside of the cranium? [13] A: After the brain was removed? [14] Q: Yes. [15] A: I don't remember. I know we did with the [16] brain in there. It seems to me, we did. It's [17] vague. [18] Q: Did you see metal or any other kind of [19] probes being used during the autopsy? [20] A: Yes. [21] Q: Did you take any photographs with probes [22] in the body? Page 73 [1] A: Not that I can recall. [2] Q: Were any probes put inside the cranium [3] that you recall? [4] A: I don't think so. I think it was [5] primarily in the neck area. [6] Q: Was the probe put into the neck, or did it [7] come out of the neck? [8] A: It was put into the back part. [9] Q: The back of the body. And then did the [10] probe come out the neck? [11] A: No. [12] Q: So, when you're referring to the neck, [13] you're referring from behind? [14] A: From behind. [15] Q: Did you take any photographs with the [16] President lying on his - of the President lying on [17] his back? [18] A: Yes. [19] Q: Did you take any photographs with the [20] President lying on his stomach? [21] A: I think so. [22] Q: Did you take any photographs with the Page 74 [1] President in a seated position? [2] A: Yes. From the back. [3] Q: Would his body then have been, roughly, at [4] a 90 degree angle with his - [5] A: Well, a little bit less than 90; yes. But [6] it was held up. [7] Q: Basically, his trunk would have been [8] vertical - - [9] A: Yes. [10] Q: - with his legs still straight? [11] A: Correct. Correct. [12] Q: Do you remember what you were [13] photographing when the President was in a seated [14] position? [15] A: Some things on the back. Some openings [16] sort of. [17] Q: On the back of his - in the back of his [18] head, or the back of his body - his torso? [19] A: Well, from the neck down. [20] Q: Neck down. [21] A: Below the neck. [22] Q: Did you, yourself take any roll film out Page 75 [1] and expose it during the course of the autopsy [2] or - [3] A: No. [4] Q: - or for any film taken that night? [5] A: No. But we did not use roll film. The [6] only one was in that camera that Riebe had that was [7] exposed by someone from the Secret Service. [8] Q: The one - the camera that you mentioned [9] earlier? [10] A: Yeah, the 120. That's the only roll film [11] that was in there. [12] Q: Could you turn again to Exhibit No. 19, [13] page 10? Could you look at the bottom paragraph on [14] page 10, please, and read that through. [15] A: Mm-hmm. [16] Q: As you're sitting here today and you see a [17] reference to a small camera, would that prompt in [18] your mind a 35 millimeter, or a medium-format? [19] A: A medium format, because we didn't have a [20] 35 millimeter. [21] Q: Mr. Stringer, we have an audio recording [22] that has been told to us is an audio recording of a Page 76 [1] telephone call between you and Mr. Lifton that was [2] mentioned earlier. That was - it's been told to [3] us - was recorded about 1972. [4] We'd like to play some excerpts of it for [5] you, to see if it helps refresh your recollection, [6] whether you can identify - or whether you can [7] verify that the conversation took place or not. [8] What I'd like to do is to give you a copy [9] of the transcript that we have made from this [10] recording. And you should listen - The [11] transcript should be to help you find it, and you [12] can verify whether the transcript seems accurate to [13] you as we play part of the tape. After we play it [14] through once, you're welcome to have us play it [15] through again. [16] Some of the portions of this are going to [17] be of greater interest to us than others. And let [18] me just state for you that, in some portions of the [19] tape, Mr. Lifton states his opinion about issues. [20] And we're not interested in Mr. Lifton's opinions. [21] We're interested about the questions that he asked [22] you and the substance of your answers. Page 77 [1] So, if Mr. Lifton says that somebody said [2] something or somebody didn't, we're not asking you [3] verify whether that's true or not. And we'd [4] just as soon that you not pay any attention to [5] that. This is down at the bottom of the page. [6] This is Excerpt #2. [7] MR. GUNN: Wait, just one moment before we [8] start. [9] BY MR. GUNN: [10] Q: Mr. Stringer, the first question that I [11] will ask you when the recording is over is whether [12) you recall having had this conversation with [13] Mr. Lifton. [14] A: I've had several conversations with [15] Mr. Lifton. [16] MR. GUNN: Okay. [17] [Whereupon, the audio tape was played.] [18] LIFTON: Were any bullets taken out of the [19] body in your presence? [20] STRINGER: No. [21] LIFTON: Yeah, that's what I - you know, [22] that's what I was wondering, because they were Page 78 [1] pretty puzzled that they couldn't find any. [2] STRINGER: I think there were some [3] portions, or slivers, or something. [4] LIFTON: Yeah. Okay. Well, when [5] you...when you...when you lifted him out, was the [6] main damage to the skull on the top, or in the [7] back? [8] STRINGER: In the back. [9] LIFTON: In the back? In the back. High [10] in the back, or lower in the back? [11] STRINGER: Oh, the occipital part in the [12) back there, (GARBLED) up above the neck. [13] LIFTON: Yeah. In other words, the main [14] part of his head that was blasted away was in the [15] occipital part of the skull? [16] STRINGER: Yes, the back part. [17] LIFTON: The back portion? Okay. In [18] other words, there was no five-inch hole in the top [19] of his head? [20] STRINGER: Oh, it was - Some of it was [21] blown off, yeah. I mean, towards - out of the top [22] in the back, yeah. Page 79 [1] LIFTON: Top in the back. I see. But the [2] top in the front was pretty...pretty - oh, I don't [3] know what word - intact? [4] STRINGER: Yeah, sure. [5] LIFTON: The top front was intact? [6] STRINGER: Right. [7] [End of audio tape portion.] [8] MR. GUNN: Please stop for a moment. [9] The next portion, we're not particularly [10] interested in. So, there's no need to particularly [11] pay attention till we come down to what on the [12] transcript is the bottom of page six, starting with [13] Mr. Lifton saying, "I see. I see." [14] Off the record. [15] [Discussion off the record.] [16] [Whereupon, the audio tape continued.] [17] LIFTON: I see. I see. Let me ask you [18] another way of stating that. And this is a good [19] way of stating what I asked you before. [20] If you lie back in a bathtub - you know, [21] just in a totally prone position and you...and your [22] head rests against the bathtub, is that the part of Page 80 [1] the head - you know, is that the part of the head [2] that was damaged? [3] STRINGER: Yeah. [4] LIFTON: That part? [5] STRINGER: Mm-hmm. [6] LIFTON: Back in the part that would be [7] against the tile of the bathtub? [8] STRINGER: Mm-hmm. [9] LIFTON: I see. Whereas, the part that [10] would be straight up ahead - you know, vertically [11] in that position - was...was undamaged? [12] STRINGER: Oh, no. I probably wouldn't [13] say undamaged", no. I mean, it was - Some of it [14] was gone. I mean, out of the - some of the bone. [15] LIFTON: Yeah. I see. [16] [End of audio tape portion.] [17] MR. GUNN: Okay. [18] BY MR. GUNN: [19] Q: Mr. Stringer, do you recall having had the [20] conversation that we just listened to with Mr. [21] Lifton? [22] A: I don't recall it, but from the tape. Page 81 [1] Somebody else played it for me. [2] Q: Does that sound as if it was an accurate [3] recording of the conversation that you had with [4] Mr. Lifton? [5] A: I don't know whether it was or not, but [6] it's not true - what's on there. [7] Q: In what respect is it not true, what's on [8] there? [9] A: Well, it - Well, the bullet came in the [10] back and came out the side. [11] Q: The question that I'd be interested in is [12] not what the trajectory of the bullet was, which [13] wasn't discussed there - [14] A: Yeah. [15] Q: - but just where the wound was on [16] President Kennedy. Did you tell Mr. Lifton that [17] the wound was in the occiput or the occipital [18] region? [19] A: I don't remember telling him that, no. [20] Q: Was there a wound in the occipital region [21] of the President - [22] A: Yes, the entry. Page 82 [1] Q: By "the entry", you mean what? [2] A: Where the bullet went. [3] Q: And how big was the entry wound? [4] A: About the size of a bullet, from what you [5] could see. On the inside where the bone was, I [6] guess it was different. [7] Q: Could you describe what the skull looked [8] like as best you can now recall? [9] A: Well - [10] Q: I'm sorry. If I can just add one more - [11] Just the nature of the damage to the skull [12] of the President, without respect to entrance or [13] exit. Just what the wound looked like. [14] A: Well, the side of the head, the bone was [15] gone. But there was a flap, where you could lay it [16] back. But the back - I mean, if you held it in, [17] there was no vision. It was a complete head of [18] hair. [19] And on the front, there was nothing - the [20] scalp. There was nothing in the eyes. You could [21] have - Well, when they did the body, you wouldn't [22] have known there was anything wrong. Page 83 [1] Q: Can you think of any reason why you would [2] have used the word occiput or oecipital portion to [3] describe the wound to Mr. Lifton? [4] A: I can't think of any reason. [5] Q: I would like to show you a skull that we [6] showed to Dr. Boswell during his deposition, where [7] he was sitting in exactly the same seat where you [8] are now, and ask you to comment on that. [9] MR. GUNN: I'll state for the record that [10] this plastic skull has been marked as ARRB MD [11] Exhibit No. 74, and it has the initials of J.T. [12] Boswell from February 26,1996 on it. [13] BY MR. GUNN: [14] Q: I'd like to show you - Although, Mr. - [15] Dr. Boswell's transcript will speak for itself, he [16] identified the mark, number one, as the extent of [17] the damage of the wound in the skull. And he [18] marked line number two as being a tear in the [19] scalp. [20] I'd just like to ask you to comment of [21] whether the drawing by Dr. Boswell, which he said [22] and certainly not exact - Page 84 [1] whether that corresponds to your recollection? [2] A: Well, when I saw it, the scalp was here [3] with the hair on it. [4] Q: Now, the scalp - [5] A: When I took a picture. [6] Q: And when you're saying - [7] A: And when they - [8] Q: I'm sorry. [9] A: Yes? [10] Q: It's just that it won't be clear on the [11] transcript. [12] A: Okay. [13] Q: When you say "here", you're covering the [14] entire back of the skull - [15] A: Yes, the entire - [16] Q:-ƒ including the occipital region? [17] A: Right. Right. [18] Q: Okay. And at that place, the scalp was [19] intact? [20] A: Yes. [21] Q: Okay. [22] A: But you could peel it back. Page 85 [1] Q: Okay. Peel the scalp back? [2] A: Yes. [3] Q: Okay. And when the scalp was peeled back, [4] did the injury to the skull appear to be of the - [5] very raw, for general dimensions - what Dr. [6] Boswell marked on the plastic skull here? [7] A: Well, all I saw was this out. But this [8] might have been cracked and stuff. But this was [9] all gone - this bone - from here. [10] Q: Okay. Now, when you say "this bone", [11] you're referring to the portion between - on the [12] model, between - [13] A: The parietal, yes. [14] Q: The parietal bone. [15] A: Yeah. [16] Q: And the portion between the numbers one [17] that is in a circle and the number two in a circle? [18] A: Let's see. That may be a little bit back [19] here behind the ear, right out through here. [20] Q: Okay. So, you're pointing right now [21] chiefly to the parietal - [22] A: Yes. Page 86 [1] Q: - region; is that fair? [2] A: Correct [3] Q: Above the ear? [4] A: Right. [5] Q: And, now, in terms of the back of the [6] skull, was the portion that would include part of [7] the occiput also severely damaged when you saw the [8] President's head? [9] A: Yes. But when - When I first saw it, [10] this was all intact. But then they peeled it back, [11] and then you could see this part of the bone gone. [12] But some of it was up in here. The bone was still [13] here. [14] Q: Okay. Once again, because it won't be [151 clear on the transcript - [16] A: Yeah. [17] Q: - I'm going to try and put it into words. [18] A: Okay. [19] Q: And tell me if I'm saying it correctly. [20] When you were pointing to the skull, you were [21] pointing chiefly to the right parietal - [22] A: Yes. Page 87 [1] Q: - area, as being the area that was [2] missing; is that correct? [3] A: Yeah, from here up. [4] Q: Okay. And you're pointing roughly from - [5] A:By the ear. [6] Q: - from the ear forward. [7] A: To just about up there. It did not come [8] into the optic area. [9] Q: Okay. Now, in terms of the wound in the [10] back of the head, you said previously that when the [11] scalp - before the scalp was peeled back, the [12] scalp was all - [13] A: Intact. [14] Q: - intact. Now, let me point out to you a [151 circle, which is on the back of the skull - that's [16] a small, self-contained circle - which Dr. Boswell [17] identified as being the entrance wound, or what he [18] believed to be the entrance wound. [19] Does that small circle seem to be, to you, [20] accurate in terms of showing where there was a hole [21] in the - [22] A: I thought it was over here. Page 88 [1] Q: When you say "over here", you're pointing [2] more towards the external occipital protuberance? [3] A: Yes. [4] Q: Is that right? [5] A: Yes. [6] Q: Now, slightly above the portion where [7] there is a self-contained circle and what Dr. [8] Boswell drew, there is a - again, a large circular [9] - or a large area where Dr. Boswell identified the [10] skull as being severely disrupted. [11] Does that seem to correspond to what you [12] observed, or is that - does that not correspond? [13] A: No, it corresponds. But he was there [14] right at the - and he could see, where I was to [15] the side. So, all I saw was this part and this [16] part. [17] Q: Okay. And when you are pointing now to - [18] when you say "this part and this part", you're [19] first to the occipital - [20] A: That was intact. It was intact. [21] Q: Okay. It was intact still when the scalp [22] was reflected; or just when the scalp was all the Page 89 [1] way up, it looked intact? [2] A: Well, it was intact up here, but then they [3] could peel it back. And the same way down here. [4] This could be peeled up. [5] Q: Okay. [8] A: All of his hair was intact. [7] Q: Okay. So, the hair was intact. When the [8] scalp was pulled back - and we're now just - [9] A: Yes. [10] Q: - talking about the skull, not the scalp [11] at all - [12] A: Yes. [13] Q: - was the occipital bone intact, or was [14] it severely disrupted? [15] A: Well, some of it was disrupted, yes. [16] Q: So that it would be fair to say that there [17] was a significant disruption in the - [18] A: There were fractures in there. [19] Q: Fractures in there. [20] A: But some of the bone was still there. It [21] wasn't destroyed. [22] Q: So, the bone was in place, but there were Page 9O [1] fractures - [2] A: Yes. [3] Q: - through the occipital region? [4] A: Yes. [5] Q: Was any portion of the occipital bone [6] missing after the scalp was reflected? [7] A: Not that I can recall. [8] Q: Mr. Stringer, I'd like to show you a [9] document that was shown to Mr. Thomas E. Robinson, [10] who was one of the morticians who reconstructed [11] President Kennedy's skull afterwards. Unlike Dr. [12] Boswell's testimony, the statements of Mr. Robinson [13] were not made under oath, so - Just so that [14] information is disclosed to you. [15] On page - the last page of Exhibit No. [16] 88, Mr. Robinson drew a picture of the portion of [17] the skull that was missing at the time that he did [18] the reconstruction. I'd like you to look at that, [19] and see whether that corresponds to your own [20] recollection. [21] A: Now, what does he say that's missing? All [22] of this? Page 91 [1] Q: The portion that is the circle - [2] A: Oh. [3] Q: - towards the back is the portion that is [4] missing - or there's a large part. And that there [5] is disruption in the dotted portions of the skull. [6] A: Well, I saw the most missing over here on [7] the parietal. It was gone. [8] Q: So, when you say "here", you're referring [9] to what on the sheet of paper is the right side. [10] A: Yes. [11] Q: And which is marked "parietal bone"? [12] A: Correct. From the ear, like in here. [13] Q: Okay. And where Mr. Robinson drew a [14] circle showing missing occipital bone, would it be [15] - do you have any recollection of whether that - [16] any portion of that occipital bone was missing? [17] A: I don't know, because I don't - I don't [18] think I ever saw the whole hair pulled down that [19] far. [20] Q: Did you ever take a picture of the back [21] with the scalp reflected? [22] A: I think we did. Page 92 [1] Q: Then, wouldn't you have seen the back of [2] the head with the scalp reflected? [3] A: Should have. But whether it was - they [4] had taken some of the bone away or something, I [5] don't know. [6] Q: When you saw the back of the head with the [7] scalp reflected, was there bone missing, regardless [8] of when that bone was taken out? [9] A: I didn't see it missing. [10] Q: You didn't see any missing. So, when you [11] saw the back of the head, the occipital bone - [12] other than a bullet - what you've characterized as [13] a bullet entry wound, you saw no missing - [14] A: Not as far as I can remember, no. [15] Q: Okay. [16] A: No. [17] Q: Are you fairly confident that your [18] recollection that you have now is accurate? [19] A: As far as I can think about it. But, here [20] again, I was away from the table. The only time I [21] was up at the table - when we took a picture. [22] Then I stepped back. I was within three or four Page 93 [1] feet of the table at all times. [2] Q: In terms of standard autopsy procedure, [3] would it have been standard procedure to take a [4] closeup photograph of any wound that was identified [5] as a possible entry wound? [6] A: Yes. But, here again, whatever they told [7] us to take, I took. [8] Q: Do you recall during the autopsy believing [9] that a photograph should be taken, but one was not [10] asked for you to take? [11] A: I don't - I don't know. I don't know - [12] I don't know how much they wanted to show. But [13] they told us what to take, and we took it. [14] Q: When you say "they", whom are you [15] referring to now? [16] A: Dr. Humes was, primarily. Dr. Boswell and [17] Dr. Finck. [18] Q: Did you have the sense at some point that [19] Dr. Humes did not want you to take a photograph of [20] the back of the head with the scalp reflected? [21] A: No, I didn't have any idea at that time. [22] Q: In your conversation with Mr. Lifton, you Page 94 [1] referred to the wound on President Kennedy's head [2] as an occipital wound; is that - [3] A: That's what I heard. [4] Q: In terms of the drawing that we've [5] identified as Exhibit No. 88, showing the back of [6] the head, would you agree that the place where Dr. [7] - or where Mr. Robinson drew the large part - the [8] large wound, the missing wound - was in the [9] occipital bone? [10] A: Well, yes. That's what his drawing shows, [11] yes. Occipital. [12] Q: Okay. Mr. Stringer, I'd like to show you [13] some videotape of an interview between Mr. Lifton [14] and Floyd Riebe. [15] And I can say to you that, yesterday, I [16] spoke with Mr. Riebe by telephone about this [17] interview. Although I did not discuss any very [18] specific portion of the interview, I asked him [19] generally whether the statements in the interview [20] were correct to the best of his understanding. And [21] he said yes, they were; and that he was prepared to [22] testify to that under oath. Page 95 [1] So, I'd like to show you some of those. [2] Because of the way that it's located on the [3] videotape, we're going to show you one of the last [4] portions of the videotape. Then return, and show [5] you some earlier portions. [6] I have, once again, a transcript of the [7] videotape, if that would help you hear it. [8] Although, this is much clearer than the telephone [9] conversation that was recorded. [10] MR. GUNN: Go ahead, please. [11] [Whereupon, the videotape was played.] [12] RIEBE: A broad circle. [13] MR. VALENTINO: Look straight into that, [14] please. Could I turn this sideways? Just make [15] that circle again, please, as you're talking. [16] That was all gone; right? [17] RIEBE: Mm-hmm. Right. [18] MR. VALENTINO: They didn't have any other [19] piece of it? [20] DSL: How high did it come up back of the [21] head? [22] RIEBE: About up to here. Page 96 [1] DSL: Okay. And just keep - Do the [2] whole perimeter. [3] MR. VALENTINO: Thanks. [4] [End of videotape portion.] [5] [Videotape shows Mr. Riebe finger-tracing [6] on the photograph an area at the back of [7] the head, where he remembers a wound.] [8] MR GUNN: Okay, Doug. [9] Let me state for the record that the [10] portion of the videotape that we just viewed on the [11] timer on the videotape is at 1:3:54 to 1:4:43. [12] BY MR. GUNN: [13] Q: Mr. Stringer, were you able to see the [14] videotape? [15] A: Yes. [16] Q: Did you see the circle that Mr. Riebe drew [17] on the photograph of the back of the head? [18] A: Yes. [19] Q: Based upon your experience in anatomy, [20] would it be fair to say that the circle that he was [21] drawing on the photograph of the head was [22] principally in the occipital - Page 97 [1] A: Yes, it was. [2] Q: - region of the head? [3] A: Mm-hmm. [4] MR. GUNN: Okay. Could we go back to [5] page 11? Off the record. [6] [Discussion off the record.] [7] MR. GUNN: Okay. Mr. Stringer, I'm about [8] to show you part of a videotape that was recorded [9] on the transcript between pages 11 and 13. It [10] starts on the videotape timer at 11:30. [11] Hold off for just one moment. [12] THE WITNESS: Now, is this it? [13] MR. GUNN: That's not. [14] THE WITNESS: Which ones now? [15] MR. GUNN: The document I'm going to show [16] you is a transcript of the videotape, the [17] authenticity of which has not been independently [18] verified. [19] The portion that we're going to be turning [20] to is page 11. And we will be starting at [21] portion - We'll actually start a little bit [22] before, but - Page 98 [1] THE WITNESS: Okay. [2] MR. GUNN: - here's where we're going to [3] be particularly starting to pay attention. [4] THE WITNESS: Okay. [5] MR. GUNN: Okay, if we can go to the [6] videotape. [7] [Whereupon, the videotape was played.] [8] DSL: What did you see, in terms of like [9] the head? [10] RIEBE: From that angle, I didn't see [11] anything wrong with the head, other than the notch [12] right here. [13] DSL: The notch right there. So, tell me [14] how you learned more about the head. [15] RIEBE: Well, when they sat him up - [16] DSL: Yeah. [17] RIEBE: - right after, I think it was [18] Colonel Finck, an Army ballistics specialist, came [19] in. [20] DSL: Yeah. [21] RIEBE: Pathologist. And they were - him [22] and the Navy pathologist were all talking. And Page 99 [1] then they sat the President up. And, see, nothing [2] was left there, back of his head. [3] DSL: Well, what did the back of the head [4] look like? [5] RIEBE: Nothing. [6] DSL: Well - [7] RIEBE: There was nothing there. [8] DSL: What was there? When you say - [9] RIEBE: A big hole. [10] DSL: A big hole? [11] RIEBE: A big hole, right in the occipital [12] region of the head. [13] DSL: And put your hand again - Where [14] was it? [15] RIEBE: Right back here. [16] DSL: I see. How high did it go, if you [17] would give me a rough estimate from memory? [18] RIEBE: Well, from this figure - the [19] center of the head, maybe three inches back was [20] Still bone. [21] DSL: Was there? [22] RIEBE: Yeah. And then from three inches Page 100 [1] down to the base of the skull was gone. [2] DSL: Just gone? [3] RIEBE: Yeah. [4] DSL: When they raised him up like that - [5] And then you're looking at him; right? [6] RIEBE: Well, I was in front, but then I [7] walked around back to get some broad views of what [8] was happening. [9] DSL: Had he already been flapped? [10] RIEBE: What do you mean, flapped? [11] DSL: Well, when you and I talked, you [12] used the expression "flapped" - the business of [13] removing the scalp. [14] RIEBE: Oh, yeah. That had already been [15] done. That was already open, the skin. [16] DSL: The skin was already open? [17] RIEBE: Yeah. [16] DSL: I see. And, so, you saw this hole [19] back there? [20] RIEBE: Mm-hmm. [21] DSL: So, it looked like - Can you tell [22] me - You say it looked like a hole, or what? Page 101 [1] RIEBE: It looked like a hole, yeah. It [2] looked like it was just blown away. [3] DSL: Just blown away. [4] RIEBE: Mm-hmm. [5] [End of videotape portion.] [6] MR. GUNN: Okay. That's - [7] BY MR. GUNN: [8] Q: Mr. Stringer, are you able to recognize [9] Floyd Riebe from the videotape? [10] A: Yes. I guess, it's him. It sort of looks [11] like him. [12] Q: It looks like him. He's a little bit [13] older - [14] A: Older. [15] Q: - than the last time you saw him? [16] A: Yes. [17] Q: Does Mr. Riebe's recollection of sitting [18] the President correspond with your own [19] recollection? [20] A: They did sit him up, yes. [21] Q: Mr. Riebe, as I'm sure you heard, referred [22] to the wound being in the occipital region. Did Page 102 [1] you hear that? [2] A: Yes. [3] Q: Does that correspond with your own [4] recollection? [5] A: No, it does not. [6] Q: Okay. [7] MR. GUNN: Doug, if we can go to page - [8] go to timer 17:33. This will be page 17 of the [9] transcript. [10] [Whereupon, the videotape continued.] [11] DSL: So, did you take pictures of this [12] area on the back of the head? [13] RIEBE: Yes. [14] DSL: You did? [15] RIEBE: Long shots. [16] DSL: Long. [17] RIEBE: Mr. Stringer was doing all the [18] closeup photography. [19] DSL: And you were doing the long shots? [20] RIEBE: Right. [21] DSL: Okay. [22] RIEBE: That's anything from three feet or Page 103 [1] more away. [2] DSL: And you did take pictures showing [3] the back of the head - [4] RIEBE: Yes. [5] DSL: - blown out? [6] RIEBE: Yes. [7] DSL: So, let me just put it, so you'll be [8] saying it to our camera. Could you just tell us [9] what kind of pictures you took of the back of the [10] head? [11] RIEBE: Well, I took several color [12] four-by-five shots. And then I switched to my 35, [13] which - I had a small, telephoto lens on it. [14] DSL: Okay. [15] RIEBE: Nothing big. [16] DSL: And if those shots showed what [17] you've described, what would you...what would you [18] expect your pictures to show of the back of the [19] head? [20] RIEBE: That there was a gaping hole [21] there. [22] DSL: So, you took pictures showing a Page 104 [1] gaping hole? [2] RIEBE: Right. [3] DSL: At any time, did you or anybody [4] assisting you lift up scalp or put scalp in place [5] to prevent us from seeing the gaping hole? [6] RIEBE: No, not that I know of. [7] DSL: So, you at no time lifted anything [8] up to obstruct the hole? [9] RIEBE: No. [10] DSL: So, you would expect your pictures [11] to show a gaping hole? [12] RIEBE: Right. [13] [End of the videotape portion.] [14] MR. GUNN: Okay, Doug. [15] BY MR. GUNN: [16] Q: Mr. Stringer, were you able to hear the [17] words of Mr. Riebe in the videotape? [18] A: Yes, I was. [19] Q: To the best of your recollection, did [20] Mr. Riebe take any photographs of the President's [21] body? [22] A: No, he did not. Page 105 [1] Q Did Mr. Riebe, to the best of your [2] recollection, have a 35 millimeter camera in - [3] A: No, he did not. There was only the one [4] camera in the autopsy room, the four-by-five. [5] Q: Previously, you mentioned that there was a [6] camera that took 120 - that used 120 film. [7] A: On the back, yes. There was an adapter. [8] Q: Okay. So, that was not a medium-format [9] camera. It was an adapter for a four-by-five. [10] A: That's correct. The only other medium was [11] the one that he'd carried in, which the film was [12] destroyed. [13] Q: Okay. I'm interested in that camera, that [14] the film was destroyed on. What camera was that, [15] that had been taken in? [16] A: The 135 - I mean, the 120. [17] Q: Okay. And that was the one that you had [18] thought was likely to be a Mimiya flex; is that [19] right? [20] A: No, it was not a Mimiya flex. [21] Q: Oh. What kind of 120 - [22] A: It was a cheap, little camera that we had Page 106 [1] around the lab. [2] Q: Okay. And, so, if Mr. Riebe were to have [3] taken any photographs of the body, it would have [4] been with that cheap, medium-format camera? [5] A: Yeah, but there wasn't any film in it. [6] Q: Okay. [7] A: They took the film. [8] Q: Okay. [9] MR. GUNN: Doug, can we go to page 21; [10] 21:35. [11] [Discussion off the record.] [12] [Whereupon, the videotape continued.] [13] RIEBE: But this is the occipital region [14] here. [15] DSL: And what did you see there? [16] RIEBE: Nothing. There was nothing there. [17] DSL: But there's something here in the [18] picture. [19] RIEBE: Right. That's not a picture that [20] I've taken. [21] DSL: How come...how come it's at the [22] National Archive? How come this is there? Page 107 [1] RIEBE: I don't have any idea. [2] [End of videotape portion.] [3] MR. GUNN: Okay. [4] BY MR. GUNN: [5] Q: Mr. Stringer, were you able to hear [6] Mr. Riebe in the videotape? [7] A: Yes, I was. [8] MR. GUNN: Doug, could you go ahead to - [9] this is a change, but to 35. And it would be [10] 35:40. [11] We've got a slight change here. We're [12] going to start on page 34 of the transcript, 34:22 [13] of the tape. "Say it again" is the first line. [14] [Discussion off the record.] [15] [Whereupon, the videotape continued.] [16] DSL: Say it again. So, when you got [17] through with the 12 pack, what did you do with the [18] 12 pack? [19] RIEBE: I gave it to the Secret Service. [20] It was either the Secret Service or FBI, one of the [21] two. [22] DSL: Civilian? Page 108 [1] RIEBE: Civilian; right. [2] DSL: And he...he was right there? [3] RIEBE: Right. [4] DSL: They would know to count. [5] RIEBE: Everything - every film, every [6] picture that I took, I'm pretty sure he got a [7] mental count on it. [8] DSL: And were any - And these scene [9] photographs were taken with the four-by-five? [10] RIEBE: Mm-hmm. [11] DSL: Not with any other camera? [12] RIEBE: No, with four-by-five. [13] DSL: Did you take any pictures at all [14] with 120 roll? [15] RIEBE: Not 120.1 did with 35. [16] DSL: With 35? [17] RIEBE: Right. The only 120 camera we had [18] at the school, I was not that good with. It was an [19] old Mimiya flex. [20] DSL: Yeah. [21] RIEBE: And I didn't like that camera, [22] really, that much at all. So, I used a Canon 35 Page 109 [1] millimeter. [2] DSL: So, you didn't take any pictures at [3] all with a 1 - [4] RIEBE: Not with a 120, no. [5] DSL: Your pictures of the body were taken [6] with a 35 mil - Did you take any pictures of the [7] body with a 35 millimeter? [8] RIEBE: Some, yeah. More or less, general [9] overview. I had a small...a small roll. It was 20 [10] exposures or - yeah, 20 exposures. [11] DSL: Do you remember the incident of [12] taking pictures inside the chest? [13] RIEBE: No. [14] DSL: Well, I mean, did they - Do you [15] remember finding a bruise inside the chest when [16] they opened him up? Do you remember the Y [17] incision? [18] RIEBE: Yeah. [19] DSL: Did they do - You were there when [20] they did the Y incision? [21] RIEBE: Right. [22] DSL: Did they ask you to take any Page 110 [1] pictures internal? [2] RIEBE: No. Pictures internally would [3] have had to have been done with a tripod, I'm sure. [4] DSL: Yeah. [5] RIEBE: Because that's the only way we've [6] done this is - You know, after I got out of [7] school when I was at the Pathology Institute, we [8] always used a tripod, because you have to take a [9] timed exposure. [10] DSL: I see. And you weren't using the [11] tripod? [12] RIEBE: No. Mr. Stringer - [13] DSL: So that - [14] RIEBE: - had the tripod in there. [15] DSL: Mr. Stringer was using the tripod? [16] RIEBE: Right. He had - [17] DSL: So, if they called for pictures [18] inside the chest, which needed the tripod, Mr. [19] Stringer - [20] RIEBE: Right. Mr. Stringer was right [21] there with the four-by-five view camera. And he [22] could have got all the angles and corrections - Page 111 [1] everything to make a decent picture. [2] DSL: Okay. [3] RIEBE: But with a hand-held camera, it's [4] awfully hard to do. [5] DSL: So, you were doing the hand-held [6] work? [7] RIEBE: Right. [8] DSL: By the way, what kind...what kind [9] of - What was it they needed your hand-held work [10] for, if Stringer was using the tripod? [11] RIEBE: Just general overviews mostly. [12] DSL: General overviews? [13] RIEBE: Right. Mr. Stringer did the [14] closeups. [15] DSL: Okay. But with the back of the [16] head, you did those? Or Stringer? [17] RIEBE: Mr. Stringer did some. [18] DSL: Yeah. [19] RIEBE: He got the closer views. And I [20] did from about him to the wound. [21] DSL: Yeah. [22] RIEBE: We'd swing the camera out of the Page 112 [1] way, and I took a few shots with the big camera. [2] DSL: And, so, the one you're using for [3] the back - [4] RIEBE: That showed the head. [5] DSL: Yeah. [6] RIEBE: And Mr. Stringer showed just the [7] immediate area. [8] DSL: I see. And your camera, that you [9] did just the head with, is four-by-five? [10] RIEBE: It was a four-by-five speed [11] Graphlex. [12] DSL: Okay. So, the 35 millimeter camera [13] was used for what, then? [14] RIEBE: I did some general overviews, took [15] pictures of the throat and the face, side views of [16] the body. [17] DSL: About how many pictures do you think [18] you took that night? [19] RIEBE: Well, I took 24 four-by-fives and [20] one rollof 35. [21] DSL: One roll of 35? [22] RIEBE: Uh-huh. So, that was another 20 Page 113 [1] exposures. It would be about 44. [2] DSL: Forty-four that you took? [3] RIEBE: Yeah. [4] DSL: That's not counting Stringer? [5] RIEBE: No. I don't know how many he [6] took. He was - I think Mr. Stringer was using [7] color. [8] DSL: Yeah. [9] RIEBE: Because we had big stack of film [10] cassettes in there. [11] DSL: Were you using color, or black and [12] white, or both? [13] RIEBE: Black and white. [14] DSL: Black and white only? [15] RIEBE: Color on the 35. [16] DSL: Okay. Color on the 35. [17] RIEBE: Right. [18] DSL: So, if you have a complete [19] collection of everything from that night - from [20] the work of you and Stringer, there's supposed to [21] be 35 millimeter film in there? [22] RIEBE: Mm-hmm. Page 114 [1] DSL: No question about that? [2] RIEBE: No question about that. [3] You took 35 - [4] RIEBE: Right. [5] DSL: - millimeter pictures? [6] RIEBE: Yeah. [7] [End of videotape portion.] [8] MR. GUNN: Okay, Doug. [9] BY MR. GUNN: [10] Q: Mr. Stringer, were you able to hear the [11] words of Mr. Riebe? [12] A: Yes, I am. Yes, I was. [13] Q: Mr. Riebe referred to his having exposed [14] two 12 packs. Does that refresh any recollection [15] you have? [16] A: No. [17] Q: Are you fairly confident that Mr. Riebe is [18] incorrect about the two 12 packs? [19] A: I don't remember him taking any pictures [20] at all. [21] Q: The photo lab did have a speed Graphic [22] camera, though?
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